This is a log of a discussion we had today about a colony of bats that we're planning on bringing to Thorn Valley. I'm hoping that we can post an executive summary soon, but for those of you who don't mind wading through the brainstorming process, here's what we came up with:

Timothy was wondering if there was any more plans/thoughts you had for that bat colony idea? (re, in case you missed it)

Jesmin did miss it! "I've rattled at a few details. We definitely need to decide on their relationship to the canon world, like with the rats and otherbeasts." :]

Timothy nods, makes sense. Any thoughts? I'm goessing that they'd be mistrustful of the rats, in general. Not sure how the rats would view them, though I'm guessing that they wouldn't have/believe in the mythology the bats do (assuming that we're keeping that)

Brendan says, "Yeah...and I'd think the bats would kinda be freaked out by the rats' and mice's intelligence n'whatnot"

Jesmin says, "Of course. :] That sounds viable to to me. And, yeah, lol. Probably."

Timothy nods... Also wondering what might bring them into contact. The only thing I can think of would be the bats taking food from the rat's farm, which might be a bit limiting.

Xavier says, "or raiding crops etc"

Jesmin doesn't see much coming from that, honestly. The bats themselves are purely insectivorous biology-wise, unless you want to tweak that. That, or they are being malign for whatever reason.

You ask, "Maligned? By whom?"

Xavier says, "not all bats are insectivores"

Jesmin says, "I mean themselves being intentionally malign-- or vindictive. For whatever reason. Though I personally see them as a neutral species, but that doesn't mean some kind of agitated factor couldn't be involved."

Jesmin says, "The species we are using are, though, Xavier. :]"

Brendan makes all the bats watch A Shot of Love with Tila Tequila. That should piss em off right proper. ;) Bwaha.

Timothy nods a bit. Perhaps they were relocating because of persecution or something?

Timothy smirks

Jesmin says, "That would make more sense. Perhaps they're trying to place blame on something that has occurred and disturbed their roosts, or other parts of their lives. Maybe their normal food sources are depleting for some reason. :]"

Jesmin pffts! Tila Tequila. XD

You ask, "I've got it... maybe rats invaded their colony originally (for whatevr reason)?"

You ask, "That'd provide them a reason to be mistrustful of the rats here, while at the same time interested in what they're up to, I'd think?"

Xavier says, "somehow I dont think theyd ahve to worry about food source depleting given how pest insects procreate so profusely"

Jesmin says, "That's a good idea! Some past issues would definitely support it."

You say, "Well, it *is* winter ICly now... I imagine insects are somewhat harder to find at this point."

Jesmin says, "Probably not. Though, with winter (is it winter ICly? O_o) and the possible introduction of some form of local pesticides, you never know."

Jesmin says, "Lulz. Question answered. :]"

Timothy grins...

Xavier says, "don't bats generally hibernate? I dont think pesticides would wipe out say flies for example"

Jesmin says, "So, yes, they could possibly be mistrustful, perhaps even some vindictive, towards rats."

Timothy nodnods

Brendan sticks his tongue out at the batty. MNYAH.

You say, "There wouldn't be any pesticides in Thorn Valley, I'd think. Maybe wherever they came from, but not here."

Jesmin nodnods.

Xavier says, "bats diets are so diverse among insect species that i doubt any pesticide would kill enough of them to cause a shortage for a bat population, that and the turn over for new generations, especially in pest species is very high."

You say, "Still, I'd like to have a better idea of what could happen specifically. We've established a lot of good why's, but I'd like some ideas of what. n.n"

Xavier says, "I'd say it be more plausible of human factors in exterminating the bats themselves in their old location."

Jesmin says, "There have been accounts where pesticides have had a detrimental effect on bat populations, both through the depletion of insects themselves, and the poisoning of the bats. The spotted bat is a good example."

Jesmin says, "Yes, same here. :] We'll have to turn this into a brain storming session."

Timothy nods.

Timothy would love to hear any input you have, Xav. n.n

Brendan says, "Actually, its good that you're bringing up possible issues. :) Makes it easier to iron things out."

Jesmin didn't mean to be overbearing, if she was! D; No, speak up! Issues are good to have brought up.

Brendan says, "This is gonna be a MUCKwide thing, so as many people involved in this as possible is definitely a good thing :)"

Jesmin says, "Yiss. :]"

Brendan says, "...OMG. They're remaking a Nightmare on Elm Street. That's bad enough. BUT. ROBERT ENGLUND ISN"T PLAYING FREDDY."

Cedric hugs Xavier from afar!

Jesmin LOLs.

Brendan says, "This sucks monkeynuts. >.<"

Brendan says, "Ben Foster would be a good Freddy. He's got the creepy factor."

Cedric hugs you from afar!

Jesmin says, "Okay, so... Hmm. Human meddling could be possible, too. Big-Eareds have very selective caves. In real life, I believe they only roost in one cave in West Virginia. So the loss or disturbance of it could be pretty agitating. "

You ask, "As far as the bats moving to the valley?"

Jesmin nods.

Timothy nods. Could be a factor, though other than helping get them here I don't see much we could use that for at the moment. (There really aren't any humans played currently)

Brendan says, "That's a good idea."

Brendan says, "But yeah, that's true"

Brendan is kinda glad too, actually...dunno how humans would fit in here. Heh.

You say, "It's something we've tossed around a bit, but aside from doing a NIMH-related (as in the place) plot, it's not something that can be done easily, I'd say. Not without a good amount of forethought."

Jesmin says, "As far as them coming from somewhere else (if that is the direction that you're trying to take, which I assume it is? o_O), they could come from somewhere outside Thorn Valley. Otherwise, they could already be located here and just be disturbed in their hibernation somehow. 'Cause they should be hibernating, but I wouldn't be against tweaking that for the sake of role play."

You say, "I think I like the idea of them being from outside. Thorn Valley's not quite big enough ICly for the rats to go unnoticed, especially by something that flies."

Brendan says, "Yeah...especially for as long as they've been here :)"

Jesmin nodnods. "Well, then it's open to any variety of outside disturbances. We just need to throw some ideas out and pick one or two (or more?) we like." :]

Timothy nods. Heck, I'm fine with settling on the ideas we've got now, unless there's something wrong with them.

Brendan doesn't see anything wrong. :)

You say, "I'm more interested in exploring how the bats and rats might interact."

Jesmin doesn't, either. But she meant more about the specifics of what happened. The feral rats just kinda... invaded their colony for some reason at one point? Specifically knowing what happened would help impact the potential relationship between them.

You say, "Ah, true... Hm... "

You say, "I'm doubting it'd be food competition, though I can't say for sure."

Brendan says, "Yeah, that's a little too simple, I think. :)"

You say, "Could bring mythology into it if that'd help, though I'm hoping to be a bit more original than just copying off of Silverwing. n.n"

Jesmin says, "Yes, I'm really interested in creating a mythology for them, too. :]"

Brendan says, "ZOMG THEIR LEADER IS NAMED ZEUS AND HE HITS ON TONS OF OTHER CHICKS AND FIRES LIGHTNING BOLTS AT PEOPLE :D"

You say, "As far as why the rats invade, meaning I'm hoping to do something besides punishing them for looking at the sun or something."

Brendan says, "...sorry XD"

You say, "Could be that the other rats were seeing the bats themselves as potential food? (at least the younger ones)"

Jesmin thought about that, too. Completely possible.

Brendan says, "Would they eat something that looked so similar to themselves though? :)"

Jesmin asks, "Yeah, that's another thing-- how would they react to something that is similar, yet entirely different the way the bat is? Would they think them freakish, or just another critter?"

You say, "Feral rats might... And if you're hungry, I think it matters a lot less what your food looks like."

Jesmin nods.

Brendan nodnods

You say, "Could perhaps even tie it into that whole Stagg thing that Brutus had introduced a while back. *Those* rats would eat anything."

Jesmin says, "I really think it's a good idea. :> And that's definitely a good reason to move and distrust rats. The bats could even make them into some kinda culturually demonic figure, as in why you should stay away from the non-fliers."

Jesmin laughs. Stagg thing?

You say, "As long as it wasn't too big an impediment for interaction, I'd say. At the very least there'd need to be some bats curious enough to buck the rule. n.n"

Jesmin says, "Well, of course! That's the fun of it, having rules to break. ;] Especially from the younger generations of bats."

You say, "Stagg rats are basically sewer rats that are like the polar opposite of NIMH rats--except for being very strong physically in general."

Jesmin ahhhs. Interesting. O-o Did that idea ever pan out?

You say, "Well, there aren't any actively played at the moment (aside from Balak, though he's something of a 'reformed' stagg), but we have used them in the past."

Brendan nodnods. Rapta = nastyrat.

Brendan misses Brutus/Rapta :(

Jesmin ooooo's. Might be interested in apping one if they are available later on down the road. :>

Brendan can totally see Brendan trying to make friends with one of said curious younger bats. :)

You say, "We'd have to come up with a reason for them to leave the sewers, though. They cannibalize the weak to keep population in check, in general, so I'm thinking something other than overpopulation. Could be something as simple as a 'turf war' between two rival tribes with one of them getting exiled..."

Brendan says, "Cynthia, definitely. Just cuz she's like that. XD"

Timothy grins. Well, she made friends with a weasel, so... n.n

Brendan says, "This is true."

Jesmin definitely wants to get some young bats recruited for role play. x]

Brendan says, "Well, with the amount of alts people have here, I'm sure that shouldn't be too difficult"

Timothy wouldn't mind playing a younger bat. I tend to like playing younger chars in general. n.n

Jesmin is definitely going to make a younger one. :D Jesmin's my sensible adult.

Brendan nodnods. S'fun.

You say, "And if the bats met the Staggs, it would *totally* justify their seeing rats as terrible demon-like creatures."

Jesmin exclaims, "Haha. Yes. I'd love to get the Staggs involved with this whole thing somehow. Actually, I'd love to get as many groups and people involved as we can. :> The more, the merrier!"

You say, "Typically, whenever we've needed the Staggs for something, we've just used NPCs. Like I said, I don't think there's more than a couple of chars on here that are/were playing Staggs (or former Staggs) full time."

Jesmin nods. "That's a shame. They sound fun, if a little limited."

Timothy nods... It's one of those things that there needs to be a lot more interest in them than there is currently to really support full-time players.

Brendan nodnods.

Jesmin says, "Yeah. Understandable. The bats will likely be the same way."

Jesmin says, "If you guys need another Stagg at some point, though, I've got total interest. :]"

Timothy grins and nodnods. Will definitely keep that in mind. Again, Rapta was kind of the driving force behind that idea, and since she's not around anymore, it's languished.

Brendan says, "Yeah. :/"

Jesmin says, "What a shame. D:"

Brendan says, "Rapta was the one who drew all those awesome pics of Brendan and the others :)"

Jesmin says, "Oh! Neat. :D"

Jesmin asks, "Okay, so... Rats eating bat pups? Is that what we decided so far?"

You ask, "Anyway... Thoughts for how they might meet/etc?"

Twyla blinks! o.O "Eating bat-bats?"

You say, "Not us, other rats. n.n"

Twyla was about to say...

Brendan snickers. Hey Twyla!

Twyla tailpokes Brendan

Brendan fweees.

Jesmin says, "Well, I'm a little ignorant to the lives of the NIMH rats here. I'm not sure what all openings are available for run-ins. :]"

Jesmin waves to Twyla! Heylo! :D

Twyla wavies to Jesmin

Twyla says, "Well.... Zenith already has a modest rapport going with Timothy, if that could be of any advantage."

You say, "Winter is a bit more difficult, since they tend to stay inside. However, there would be guards and a (probably reduced) scout patrol. There's also the occasional rat/mouse up on the terrace..."

You say, "Probably a few rats that go out to collect firewood and such, too."

Xavier imagines a lumberjack Rat

Jesmin giggles.

Twyla says, "Could always retcon a minor aspect of Lydia's 'foray'..."

Twyla exclaims, "Hey! David's son is a lumber-rat!"

Twyla forgets which one

Brendan is a lumberjack and I'm okay...

Brendan sleeps all night and he works all day. :D

Timothy hmms to Twyla?

Jesmin says, "Well, that helps a lot! Since the bats are seekin' a permanant home in the valley, that will give them an excuse to be fairly active and promote run-ins."

Twyla was just pointing out that Ronald Maxwell is a lumberjack

Timothy nodnods. That makes a lot of sense, actually. I had thought we were starting after they'd already settled in, but having them looking around would definitely be a good idea. Could have it so that a potential cave is near the colony, even.

Xavier asks, "what if they found some of the caves that the rear entrances of the colony utilize?"

You say, "There's a thought... n.n"

Twyla exclaims, "Oh, hell yeah!"

Jesmin nods. "Yep! That will give them a biological excuse to be active. Whether there are scouts searching for the new cave, or bats just looking for food. If you want to take it a step further, you could even say the bats have in their lore an idea of where the cave is-- as in perhaps it was an ancestral cavern, or an abandoned cavern for another bat species, and only have a hint or clue as to where it might be."

Xavier says, "oops I forgot I was being quiet *zips his lip again* ^.^"

You say, "There's also some shafts up in the cliffs above the terrace that are used for ventilation, though I'm betting the rats have already taken precautions against birds nesting there."

Twyla exclaims, "See, Xav? You come up with lots of good ideas!"

Jesmin says, "That's a fab idea. :>"

Jesmin unzips Xavier's lips! D:

Timothy nodnods to Twyla and grins at Xav. n.n

Xavier doesn't have good ideas, but builds off of existing ideas best.

Brendan says, "Me too. XD"

Timothy grins. Me three, honestly. n.n

Xavier is good at taking a so-so or an 'okay' idea and turning it into an excellent one

Jesmin nodnods! Sometimes those are the best conceived ones. :]

Brendan tries to brainstorm, but usually it just ends up as a light drizzle. *le sigh*

Xavier says, "thats why I always encourage all ideas be put out on the table, even bad ideas can inspire good ones"

Jesmin says, "Yus. :] Even if they are ideas inspired from other places, such as books and such. Like the whole Silverwing thing."

You say, "Anyway, that seems like that'd solve just about all the problems I can think of as far as getting interaction in place. And really, I think that enough interest can be maintained after the initial interaction to keep things interesting. It'll be interesting to see how the Rats would react, too."

Jesmin nods. "Yep!"

You say, "Dunno if there's anything else to bring up? n.n"

Twyla still think that it might draw Timothy and Zenith's 'relationship' under some unusual scrutiny

Jesmin says, "We've pretty much solved the big issues! :D Unless you want to work on the bat mythology/culture thing, or any of the other little details."

Timothy nods... that it could, yeah.

You say, "Might be good to nail down a general idea for the mythology/culture, though it doesn't have to be extremely detailed."

Jesmin says, "Wiggle room is fab. But having some basics wouldn't hurt at all. :D"

Twyla says, "Just no 'Eh-Huzzah' or whatever, please."

Brendan wiggles.

You say, "Again, you mentioned Silverwing as an inspiration, but especially since not everyone will have read the books, it'd be good to just get things down as if we're starting from scratch."

You ask, "'Eh-Huzzah?"

Brendan says, "Yeah...no magiks other than the Amulet. :D Cuz otherwise this place would end up like the old MUCK was. Heh. XD"

Jesmin says, "I totally agree-- I meant it as a mere reference for something to compare to. :]"

You say, "Oh, yeah. Magic is pretty much non-existant here. At least in the raw state that it was in the movie. I don't mind a bit of mysticism and such."

Jesmin says, "We just need a few historical references for them to base their stuff on."

Jesmin nodnods.

Twyla was referring to the Loki-like character in Watership Down that everyone practically worshipped

You say, "Ah. n.n"

Brendan asks, "Eh?"

You ask, "So, any thoughts there?"

Jesmin asks, "On magic, or just.. any raw ideas?"

You say, "Culture/mythology was what I was after. Again, just a general idea to know where they'd be coming from, not to enforce compliance with. n.n"

Jesmin nods. "Yep. Well, we got the rat demonizing down. I'm sure they're wary of all non-fliers simply by their separation from them-- perhaps considering them weird, or maybe just pitying their lack of wings? They could possibly hold some kind of romantic idea of the stars and moon. Maybe hold an importance with song. Uh... I don't know, stop me when you hear something interesting you'd like to build off of. XD"

Brendan says, "I know! They could sing the popular hits of today mixed in with the classic hits of yesteryear :D"

Jesmin says, "OF COURSE."

Brendan exclaims, "WBAT!"

Jesmin lols. e_e

Timothy nods a little... I'd think that the wariness of non-fliers would make sense, though it might be good to get a bit more detailed with that.

Brendan says, "I got nothin'. XD"

You say, "The song idea sounds interesting; I could definitely see a focus on hearing (or sight by sound) in their culture."

Jesmin nodnods. "As far as wariness, it depends on your approach to it. Whether they just fear them because they don't want to be gobbled, or there's something as complex as them being haughty and pompous about their ability to fly. I'll leave that kind of thing up to you, since it doesn't really matter to me. I wouldn't know what would fit best. As for song-- definitely. It adds a sort of mysticism to them." :>

Timothy hmms... I think that might be something left to individual chars as far as how they feel about it, but I do think there'd be a general mistrust towards non-fliers, and perhaps some pride for being able to.

Jesmin nodnods.

You say, "This might be one of those things that it'd make sense to RP and fill in as we go."

You say, "As far as culture goes."

Jesmin says, "Most likely. :] Honestly, I've found that culture/social behavior itself is best left to evolve on its own between the players when it comes to a new group."

Jesmin says, "Too many restrictions just strangle everything."

Timothy nodnods. Exactly.

You say, "I think that was part of what made the NIMHMouse Colony not take off the way I'd hoped... we tried to build a culture instead of let it evolve and not enough people were interested in playing that culture. Might have to revisit that. :/"

You say, "Anyway... I think that does it. I think we're pretty much ready to assemble chars and RP this. :)"

Brendan nods. :) So how many of the original Lost 8 are still here, Tim?

Jesmin groans, "Yeah. I learned it the hard way myself, too, when I tried to build a culturally thick colony elseMU. -- Yep! I think so, too!" :D

Brendan says, "Me, Darshak, ummm..."

Brendan can't even remember who else. XD Been awhile.

You say, "Eugene... "

Brendan says, "OK, 3"

You say, "And I think that's pretty much it as far as active players. :/"

Jesmin says, "The Lost 8? e_e"

You say, "Escapees of a second NIMH experiment, basically. Happened long before I became a wiz. n.n;"

Brendan says, "Yup. Brendan was itty bitty at the time."

Jesmin says, "Ah! :]"

Twyla blinks as she checks back in... "Great... Bats that speak in 80's jargon..."

Brendan says, "But for awhile, he had side effects from the experiments, namely really bad headaches that would occur whenever something bad was about to happen. Heh."

Jesmin cackles.

Timothy chuckles.

Twyla says, "I'd have to say that they feel inherently superior to ground-based creatures, and probably to birds as well. Whether that manifests as arrogance or 'pity' would be a matter of interpretation."

Twyla asks, "Remember the lady wasp in Antz?"

Brendan says, "No."

You say, "Oh, that's one other thing... Don't suppose that there'd be anyone here willing to condense this lovely and lengthy discussion into something that could be posted on the NIMHmuck website? n.n;"

Jesmin says, "Hahaha. That's a good example."

Jesmin could, possibly?

"Oh, but they're so small and crawly and filthy. We simply /must/ help the poor dears."

Jesmin laughs.